Discussion:
Why Polygamy Has A Bright Future
(too old to reply)
Sound of Trumpet
2010-08-10 11:18:04 UTC
Permalink
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2567199/posts

Polygamy: The New Growth Stock

TownHall ^ | August 9, 2010 | ALLEN HUNT

Posted on 09 August 2010 14:40:36 by Mrs. Don-o

I am bullish on polygamy. It has a bright future. Now that The Very
Reverend Vaughn Walker, High Priest of the Church of Political
Correctness, has cleared the way for the creation of the oxymoronic
idea of “homosexual marriage,” polygamy's life just got a whole lot
easier.

One tiny part of my weekly ritual is to read the wildly popular web
site, Post Secret, each Sunday. Post Secret shares anonymous tidbits
of those who send in a post card with their secrets declared and/or
illustrated. I enjoy discovering what kinds of inner secrets people
are carrying around.

Last Sunday, the site's first display stated, “I'm 25 and finally in a
loving, committed relationship. It just happens to be with a married
couple” The artwork on the postcard showed a stick figure man holding
hands with two stick figure women.

My first thought: if “homosexual marriage” is acceptable, on what
basis could one possibly say that this woman's innovative “marriage”
is not? If (as the Rev. Walker has now issued forth in his judicial
ruling this week) marriage is a civil right, and marriage is to be
defined by an individual person, this 25 year old young woman needs to
file a lawsuit seeking recognition of her special union too. She is in
a hopelessly disadvantaged state. Her participation in that three-way
relationship offers her no legal status as a married person, affords
her no tax benefits, and leaves her in an inferior state. She has no
claims on the children for whom she cares in that marriage
relationship. This young woman is a second-class citizen.

She is not the only one to wish to define marriage in her own special
way. At the very least, she will find support in Texas, Arizona, and
Utah, where polygamist communities in the Mormon tradition will
eagerly embrace her claim. After all, if marriage is a civil right,
and it is to be defined by each person, who is to say that polygamy is
wrong?

Polygamy fulfills two main pillars of marriage: companionship and
openness to the creation of new life, or procreation of children.
“Homosexual marriage” achieves only half of those two. Government has
a clear interest in the creation and rearing of healthy children since
these are the future tax-paying adults upon whom society will be
built. Moreover, children from stable, two-parent homes (a group soon
to be placed on the endangered species list) generate lower social
costs given that they are the group most likely to complete school,
avoid substance abuse, stay out of the criminal justice system, and
even ultimately create additional two-parent homes.

In addition, polygamy affords children the opportunity to be
influenced by their own mother and father, another gift that
“homosexual marriage” inherently cannot offer given its intrinsic
barrenness. It seems most moral that children have a right not only to
know who their parents are but to know each of them as fully as
possible, a right not possible in “homosexual marriage,” but fully
real in polygamy.

Polygamy also has much more traditional, historical support than any
notion of “homosexual marriage.” A number of cultures across the
millennia have embraced, even encouraged, multi-person marriage. Many
non-Western cultures today still do.

Major faiths all have some rootage in the idea of multi-person
marriage. David and Solomon each had a bevy of wives. Mohammed was a
prodigious marry-er as was Joseph Smith. “Homosexual marriage” is
entirely absent in faith communities.

Multi-person marriages can be fully consummated. Under natural law,
such consummation inherently cannot occur in “homosexual marriage.”
The notion of the complementarity of the sexes, another foundational
concept for marriages and families, is entirely absent in “homosexual
marriage,” but is entirely present in polygamy.

By now, it is clear that we have a problem. We have forgotten what
marriage is, if we ever knew in the first place. It is not a mere
matter of individual rights nor of individual interests. This is but
one place where attorneys Ted Olsen and David Boies missed the mark in
their arguments before The Very Reverend Vaughn Walker in the federal
court. They also never even mentioned the nature and rights of
children at all. In their minds, marriage and family have now become
entirely about the rights of the adults.

The hallmarks of their legal case hinged not on defining what marriage
is but rather simply insisting that it must be a right. Ted Olsen
based much of his argument on equal protection under the law. Marriage
in his world view is about your right to have what you want rather
than marriage's being a building block for a healthy stable society
and the best time-proven nest for the creation of new life. He even
went so far as to say that “...family is about love,” thereby
introducing Barney the Purple Dinosaur as a legal precedent.

Worse still, The Very Reverend Vaughn Walker seized on this
individualistic notion of marriage rights to cap his career as one of
two openly homosexual federal judges. In all caps, in the middle of
his opinion, he wrote in all caps, “A PRIVATE MORAL VIEW THAT SAME-SEX
COUPLES ARE INFERIOR TO OPPOSITE-SEX COUPLES IS NOT A PROPER BASIS FOR
LEGISLATION...” Somehow, Rev. Walker misses the point that there is no
such thing as having no moral view. He merely replaced one moral view
with his own with his insistence that California's obligation is to
treat its citizens equally, not to "mandate [its] own moral code." His
lack of self-awareness and critical thinking is appalling. There
simply is no such thing as moral-free thinking or legislating. The
question is which moral system will you use not whether you will use
one at all. Rev. Walker merely enshrined his own.

Many things remain uncertain to be sure, but this we know: when a door
has been ripped from its hinges and frame, it is no longer a door but
rather merely a large piece of wood flailing around aimlessly in the
air. In the same way, when marriage is ripped from its moral frame of
monogamy, fidelity, companionship, and openness to new life, it may be
something, but it is no longer marriage. America is now fully on that
trajectory.

All that to say, if you are investing in stocks in America, the future
of polygamy looks bright.
Saimhain Moose
2010-08-10 13:03:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sound of Trumpet
All that to say, if you are investing in stocks in America, the future
of polygamy looks bright.
And since there are plenty of examples of it in the Bible, this
is very comforting to those who campaign for traditional marriage.
W.T.S.
2010-08-10 13:06:10 UTC
Permalink
"Sound of Trumpet" wrote in message news:ccf6bc75-864a-457e-b039-***@i31g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2567199/posts

Polygamy: The New Growth Stock

TownHall ^ | August 9, 2010 | ALLEN HUNT

Posted on 09 August 2010 14:40:36 by Mrs. Don-o

I am bullish on polygamy. It has a bright future. Now that The Very
Reverend Vaughn Walker, High Priest of the Church of Political
Correctness, has cleared the way for the creation of the oxymoronic
idea of ?homosexual marriage,? polygamy's life just got a whole lot
easier.

One tiny part of my weekly ritual is to read the wildly popular web
site, Post Secret, each Sunday. Post Secret shares anonymous tidbits
of those who send in a post card with their secrets declared and/or
illustrated. I enjoy discovering what kinds of inner secrets people
are carrying around.

Last Sunday, the site's first display stated, ?I'm 25 and finally in a
loving, committed relationship. It just happens to be with a married
couple? The artwork on the postcard showed a stick figure man holding
hands with two stick figure women.

My first thought: if ?homosexual marriage? is acceptable, on what
basis could one possibly say that this woman's innovative ?marriage?
is not? If (as the Rev. Walker has now issued forth in his judicial
ruling this week) marriage is a civil right, and marriage is to be
defined by an individual person, this 25 year old young woman needs to
file a lawsuit seeking recognition of her special union too. She is in
a hopelessly disadvantaged state. Her participation in that three-way
relationship offers her no legal status as a married person, affords
her no tax benefits, and leaves her in an inferior state. She has no
claims on the children for whom she cares in that marriage
relationship. This young woman is a second-class citizen.

She is not the only one to wish to define marriage in her own special
way. At the very least, she will find support in Texas, Arizona, and
Utah, where polygamist communities in the Mormon tradition will
eagerly embrace her claim. After all, if marriage is a civil right,
and it is to be defined by each person, who is to say that polygamy is
wrong?

Polygamy fulfills two main pillars of marriage: companionship and
openness to the creation of new life, or procreation of children.
?Homosexual marriage? achieves only half of those two. Government has
a clear interest in the creation and rearing of healthy children since
these are the future tax-paying adults upon whom society will be
built. Moreover, children from stable, two-parent homes (a group soon
to be placed on the endangered species list) generate lower social
costs given that they are the group most likely to complete school,
avoid substance abuse, stay out of the criminal justice system, and
even ultimately create additional two-parent homes.

In addition, polygamy affords children the opportunity to be
influenced by their own mother and father, another gift that
?homosexual marriage? inherently cannot offer given its intrinsic
barrenness. It seems most moral that children have a right not only to
know who their parents are but to know each of them as fully as
possible, a right not possible in ?homosexual marriage,? but fully
real in polygamy.

Polygamy also has much more traditional, historical support than any
notion of ?homosexual marriage.? A number of cultures across the
millennia have embraced, even encouraged, multi-person marriage. Many
non-Western cultures today still do.

Major faiths all have some rootage in the idea of multi-person
marriage. David and Solomon each had a bevy of wives. Mohammed was a
prodigious marry-er as was Joseph Smith. ?Homosexual marriage? is
entirely absent in faith communities.

Multi-person marriages can be fully consummated. Under natural law,
such consummation inherently cannot occur in ?homosexual marriage.?
The notion of the complementarity of the sexes, another foundational
concept for marriages and families, is entirely absent in ?homosexual
marriage,? but is entirely present in polygamy.

By now, it is clear that we have a problem. We have forgotten what
marriage is, if we ever knew in the first place. It is not a mere
matter of individual rights nor of individual interests. This is but
one place where attorneys Ted Olsen and David Boies missed the mark in
their arguments before The Very Reverend Vaughn Walker in the federal
court. They also never even mentioned the nature and rights of
children at all. In their minds, marriage and family have now become
entirely about the rights of the adults.

The hallmarks of their legal case hinged not on defining what marriage
is but rather simply insisting that it must be a right. Ted Olsen
based much of his argument on equal protection under the law. Marriage
in his world view is about your right to have what you want rather
than marriage's being a building block for a healthy stable society
and the best time-proven nest for the creation of new life. He even
went so far as to say that ?...family is about love,? thereby
introducing Barney the Purple Dinosaur as a legal precedent.

Worse still, The Very Reverend Vaughn Walker seized on this
individualistic notion of marriage rights to cap his career as one of
two openly homosexual federal judges. In all caps, in the middle of
his opinion, he wrote in all caps, ?A PRIVATE MORAL VIEW THAT SAME-SEX
COUPLES ARE INFERIOR TO OPPOSITE-SEX COUPLES IS NOT A PROPER BASIS FOR
LEGISLATION...? Somehow, Rev. Walker misses the point that there is no
such thing as having no moral view. He merely replaced one moral view
with his own with his insistence that California's obligation is to
treat its citizens equally, not to "mandate [its] own moral code." His
lack of self-awareness and critical thinking is appalling. There
simply is no such thing as moral-free thinking or legislating. The
question is which moral system will you use not whether you will use
one at all. Rev. Walker merely enshrined his own.

Many things remain uncertain to be sure, but this we know: when a door
has been ripped from its hinges and frame, it is no longer a door but
rather merely a large piece of wood flailing around aimlessly in the
air. In the same way, when marriage is ripped from its moral frame of
monogamy, fidelity, companionship, and openness to new life, it may be
something, but it is no longer marriage. America is now fully on that
trajectory.

All that to say, if you are investing in stocks in America, the future
of polygamy looks bright.

Sounds good to me!
Church, bad. Atheism, good.
----------------------------- http://folding.stanford.edu Save lives, visit
today!
raven1
2010-08-10 13:23:51 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 04:18:04 -0700 (PDT), Sound of Trumpet
Post by Sound of Trumpet
I am bullish on polygamy. It has a bright future. Now that The Very
Reverend Vaughn Walker, High Priest of the Church of Political
Correctness, has cleared the way for the creation of the oxymoronic
idea of “homosexual marriage,” polygamy's life just got a whole lot
easier.
You should be celebrating this, given that the Bible is perfectly fine
with the idea.
Quadibloc
2010-08-10 20:11:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by raven1
You should be celebrating this, given that the Bible is perfectly fine
with the idea.
Consensual polygamy is somewhat troubling with its implications for
the equality of women.

But even if polygamy is legal, we need to make sure we don't confuse
it with bigamy. In some cases, bigamy should be prosecuted as rape.

If one applies, as I think one should, the standard that for
intercourse not to be rape, one's partner must give full, freely-
given, and informed consent, then bigamy fails the final element.

For example, David Kahn's famous book, _The Codebreakers_, recounts an
incident where Yves Glyden, founder of a cipher machine firm, "unable
to overcome the virtue of a circus equestrienne" staged a fake
marriage so that she would, thinking she was married to him,
consummate that marriage.

Canadian law makes marriages legally binding even if they are not
solemnized by someone legally authorized to perform a marriage - but,
of course, this doesn't help if the marriage is a fake because the
groom is already married to someone else.

John Savard
Wayne Throop
2010-08-10 20:16:07 UTC
Permalink
: Quadibloc <***@ecn.ab.ca>
: If one applies, as I think one should, the standard that for
: intercourse not to be rape, one's partner must give full, freely-
: given, and informed consent, then bigamy fails the final element.

Um. Why?

: But even if polygamy is legal, we need to make sure we don't confuse
: it with bigamy. In some cases, bigamy should be prosecuted as rape.

Apparently I'm confused. So far as I knew, bigamy was just
polygamy with N=2 (or possibly, N goes from 1 to 2
instead of from 0 to M, but still).


Wayne Throop ***@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
Butch Malahide
2010-08-10 20:34:14 UTC
Permalink
Apparently I'm confused.  So far as I knew, bigamy was just
polygamy with N=2 (or possibly, N goes from 1 to 2
instead of from 0 to M, but still).
BIGAMY, n. A mistake in taste for which the wisdom of the future will
adjudge a punishment called trigamy.

(Almost on topic here seeing as Bierce was a proto-SF writer of note.)
Quadibloc
2010-08-10 21:44:52 UTC
Permalink
Apparently I'm confused.  So far as I knew, bigamy was just
polygamy with N=2 (or possibly, N goes from 1 to 2
instead of from 0 to M, but still).
No. Polygamy, with N greater than 1, takes place with the informed
consent of all the wives except possibly the first, who might not have
known of her husband's future intentions.

Bigamy is when a married man, concealing his status, "marries" a woman
under the pretext that he is single.

John Savard
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2010-08-10 21:58:48 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 14:44:52 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Apparently I'm confused.  So far as I knew, bigamy was just
polygamy with N=2 (or possibly, N goes from 1 to 2
instead of from 0 to M, but still).
No. Polygamy, with N greater than 1, takes place with the informed
consent of all the wives except possibly the first, who might not have
known of her husband's future intentions.
Or husbands. Polyandry does exist. It's not especially rare in Tibet
or Nepal.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
I'm serializing novels at http://www.ethshar.com/TheFinalCalling01.html
and http://www.watt-evans.com/realmsoflight1.html
James A. Donald
2010-08-10 23:18:09 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 17:58:48 -0400, Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Or husbands. Polyandry does exist. It's not especially
rare in Tibet or Nepal.
Actually it is extraordinarily rare in Tibet and Nepal, and
completely unknown elsewhere.

A polyandrous marriage usually consists of one wife, two
husbands who are always brothers or very close blood kin,
seven or more anthropologists, numerous PhD students, and
about thirty PhD theses about the marriage.
Wayne Throop
2010-08-10 23:18:52 UTC
Permalink
: James A. Donald <***@echeque.com>
: Actually it is extraordinarily rare in Tibet and Nepal, and completely
: unknown elsewhere.

And as usual, by "completely unknown", he means there is some,
more than he's willing to admit.


Wayne Throop ***@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
Bill Snyder
2010-08-10 23:32:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wayne Throop
: Actually it is extraordinarily rare in Tibet and Nepal, and completely
: unknown elsewhere.
And as usual, by "completely unknown", he means there is some,
more than he's willing to admit.
And in any case I abhor the implication that Tibet and Nepal are
havens for it.
--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank]
Quadibloc
2010-08-11 01:47:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Snyder
And in any case I abhor the implication that Tibet and Nepal are
havens for it.
Polyandry _is_ culturally accepted, or at least tolerated, in those
societies - and pretty much no other ones. These are _not_ clandestine
relationships, they are, or at least were, open and legal.

Note the fact that the husbands are usually brothers, and if not,
other close blood relatives.

In a polygynous marriage, each woman can raise her own children, with
possible assistance from her co-wives.

In a polyandrous marriage, since the men have no way of knowing who
fathered which child, in order to both have a reason to contribute to
the support of each child, they need to be related.

Basically, polyandrous marriage allows men who would be individually
too poor to have a wife to still reproduce. So this practice allows
Tibet and Nepal to avoid cruel practices like primogeniture.

John Savard
Jonathan Schattke
2010-08-11 03:41:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Bill Snyder
And in any case I abhor the implication that Tibet and Nepal are
havens for it.
Polyandry _is_ culturally accepted, or at least tolerated, in those
societies - and pretty much no other ones. These are _not_ clandestine
relationships, they are, or at least were, open and legal.
Note the fact that the husbands are usually brothers, and if not,
other close blood relatives.
Now, don't you start Quacking! That's Donald's job!
James A. Donald
2010-08-11 01:48:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wayne Throop
: Actually it is extraordinarily rare in Tibet and Nepal, and completely
: unknown elsewhere.
Wayne Throop
Post by Wayne Throop
And as usual, by "completely unknown", he means there is some,
more than he's willing to admit.
If polygyny existed, polyamory would exist. If polyamory existed, you
lot would be keen on "plural marriage". Instead, you physically
attack mormons for practicing polygamy while white.
Jonathan Schattke
2010-08-10 23:45:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by James A. Donald
On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 17:58:48 -0400, Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Or husbands. Polyandry does exist. It's not especially
rare in Tibet or Nepal.
Actually it is extraordinarily rare in Tibet and Nepal, and
completely unknown elsewhere.
A polyandrous marriage usually consists of one wife, two
husbands who are always brothers or very close blood kin,
seven or more anthropologists, numerous PhD students, and
about thirty PhD theses about the marriage.
Quack, quack Donald!

http://sexpositionsguides.co.cc/polyandry-a-social-system-in-india-now-state-of-disappearance/
(which, admittedly, seems to has lost its formatting but is still full
of infodump)
In case anyone wants to really start a serious study, instead of
listening to the duck.

"In non-fraternal polyandry, the husbands of a woman need not be
fraternally related to each other. A woman is free to choose partners
from among the persons other than her husband’s brothers. She
successively lives in the apartment of her different husbands and while
she is staying with one, the other husbands have no right to enter.
Among the Todas of Nilgiri a woman has perfect liberty to choose any
individual as her mate. The woman, having several husbands, makes the
arrangement in such a way that she spends the first month with, say, the
first husband, the second month with the second, the third, and so on,
or, according to as she allots the months. The Nayars are considered to
be a specific case for the non-fraternal polyandry. Aiyappa is of the
view (in our personal discussions) that this type of polyandry or
polyandry as such has now become a thing of the past. The Kotas also
practise this kind of polyandry. Against it to some extent are found
tribes like the Karvazhies, Pulayas, Muthuvans and Mannans in Kerala."
SkyEyes
2010-08-13 19:41:30 UTC
Permalink
On 8/10/2010 6:18 PM, James A. Donald wrote:> On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 17:58:48 -0400, Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by James A. Donald
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Or husbands.  Polyandry does exist.  It's not especially
rare in Tibet or Nepal.
Actually it is extraordinarily rare in Tibet and Nepal, and
completely unknown elsewhere.
A polyandrous marriage usually consists of one wife, two
husbands who are always brothers or very close blood kin,
seven or more anthropologists, numerous PhD students, and
about thirty PhD theses about the marriage.
Quack, quack Donald!
http://sexpositionsguides.co.cc/polyandry-a-social-system-in-india-no...
(which, admittedly, seems to has lost its formatting but is still full
of infodump)
In case anyone wants to really start a serious study, instead of
listening to the duck.
"In non-fraternal polyandry, the husbands of a woman need not be
fraternally related to each other. A woman is free to choose partners
from among the persons other than her husband’s brothers. She
successively lives in the apartment of her different husbands and while
she is staying with one, the other husbands have no right to enter.
Among the Todas of Nilgiri a woman has perfect liberty to choose any
individual as her mate. The woman, having several husbands, makes the
arrangement in such a way that she spends the first month with, say, the
first husband, the second month with the second, the third, and so on,
or, according to as she allots the months. The Nayars are considered to
be a specific case for the non-fraternal polyandry. Aiyappa is of the
view (in our personal discussions) that this type of polyandry or
polyandry as such has now become a thing of the past. The Kotas also
practise this kind of polyandry. Against it to some extent are found
tribes like the Karvazhies, Pulayas, Muthuvans and Mannans in Kerala."
Give the recent practice in China and India of aborting female fetii,
it would not surprise me to see a resurgence of polyandry in these two
countries within the next 10-15 years. If that doesn't happen, you're
going to have a shitload of frustrated young men who cannot find wives
on your hands.

Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
BAAWA Knight
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
skyeyes nine at cox dot net OR
skyeyes nine at yahoo dot com
Brian M. Scott
2010-08-13 19:58:11 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 12:41:30 -0700 (PDT), SkyEyes
<***@cox.net> wrote in
<news:98d2c1dc-6c5a-472b-bc3f-***@w15g2000pro.googlegroups.com>
in
alt.atheism,alt.abortion,alt.anarchism,alt.messianic,rec.arts.sf.written:

[...]
Post by SkyEyes
Give the recent practice in China and India of aborting
female fetii, [...]
Latin <fētus> is a fifth declension noun; the nominative
plural is <fētūs>. Length markings are normally omitted, so
the Latin plural of <fetus>, if you really *must* use it, is
just <fetus>.

Brian
Free Lunch
2010-08-13 20:06:12 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 15:58:11 -0400, "Brian M. Scott"
Post by Brian M. Scott
On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 12:41:30 -0700 (PDT), SkyEyes
in
[...]
Post by SkyEyes
Give the recent practice in China and India of aborting
female fetii, [...]
Latin <f?tus> is a fifth declension noun; the nominative
plural is <f?t?s>. Length markings are normally omitted, so
the Latin plural of <fetus>, if you really *must* use it, is
just <fetus>.
Brian
The general rule for English is that words of Latin (or any other)
origin that have become English words should be pluralized in the
regular fashion in English unless they have a common irregular plural.
Brian M. Scott
2010-08-13 20:09:28 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 15:06:12 -0500, Free Lunch
Post by Free Lunch
On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 15:58:11 -0400, "Brian M. Scott"
Post by Brian M. Scott
On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 12:41:30 -0700 (PDT), SkyEyes
in
[...]
Post by SkyEyes
Give the recent practice in China and India of aborting
female fetii, [...]
Latin <fētus> is a fifth declension noun; the nominative
plural is <fētūs>. Length markings are normally omitted, so
the Latin plural of <fetus>, if you really *must* use it, is
just <fetus>.
The general rule for English is that words of Latin (or
any other) origin that have become English words should
be pluralized in the regular fashion in English unless
they have a common irregular plural.
Which is of course why I wrote 'if you really *must* use
it'.

Brian
Free Lunch
2010-08-13 20:13:45 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 16:09:28 -0400, "Brian M. Scott"
Post by Brian M. Scott
On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 15:06:12 -0500, Free Lunch
Post by Free Lunch
On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 15:58:11 -0400, "Brian M. Scott"
Post by Brian M. Scott
On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 12:41:30 -0700 (PDT), SkyEyes
in
[...]
Post by SkyEyes
Give the recent practice in China and India of aborting
female fetii, [...]
Latin <f?tus> is a fifth declension noun; the nominative
plural is <f?t?s>. Length markings are normally omitted, so
the Latin plural of <fetus>, if you really *must* use it, is
just <fetus>.
The general rule for English is that words of Latin (or
any other) origin that have become English words should
be pluralized in the regular fashion in English unless
they have a common irregular plural.
Which is of course why I wrote 'if you really *must* use
it'.
Only trying to reinforce your point....
Mark K Bilbo
2010-08-15 13:01:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Free Lunch
On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 15:58:11 -0400, "Brian M. Scott"
Post by Sound of Trumpet
wrote in
in
[...]
Post by SkyEyes
Give the recent practice in China and India of aborting female fetii,
[...]
Latin <f?tus> is a fifth declension noun; the nominative plural is
<f?t?s>. Length markings are normally omitted, so the Latin plural of
<fetus>, if you really *must* use it, is just <fetus>.
Brian
The general rule for English is that words of Latin (or any other)
origin that have become English words should be pluralized in the
regular fashion in English unless they have a common irregular plural.
Oh like English has rules!
--
Mark K. Bilbo
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion #1423
Brian M. Scott
2010-08-15 16:23:24 UTC
Permalink
On 15 Aug 2010 13:01:14 GMT, Mark K Bilbo
<***@com.mkbilbo> wrote in
<news:***@mid.individual.net> in
alt.atheism,alt.abortion,alt.anarchism,alt.messianic,rec.arts.sf.written:

[...]
Post by Mark K Bilbo
Oh like English has rules!
If it didn't, it couldn't serve as a medium for
communication. Of has course rules it.

Brian
Free Lunch
2010-08-15 17:02:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark K Bilbo
Post by Free Lunch
On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 15:58:11 -0400, "Brian M. Scott"
Post by Sound of Trumpet
wrote in
in
[...]
Post by SkyEyes
Give the recent practice in China and India of aborting female fetii,
[...]
Latin <f?tus> is a fifth declension noun; the nominative plural is
<f?t?s>. Length markings are normally omitted, so the Latin plural of
<fetus>, if you really *must* use it, is just <fetus>.
Brian
The general rule for English is that words of Latin (or any other)
origin that have become English words should be pluralized in the
regular fashion in English unless they have a common irregular plural.
Oh like English has rules!
Of course it has rules, it just has a list of exceptions that are far
longer than the rules.

I was always taken by the idea that the plural of VAX (an old DEC
computer) should be VAXen.
Terry Cross
2010-08-15 17:39:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Free Lunch
Post by Mark K Bilbo
Post by Free Lunch
On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 15:58:11 -0400, "Brian M. Scott"
Post by Sound of Trumpet
wrote in
in
[...]
Post by SkyEyes
Give the recent practice in China and India of aborting female fetii,
[...]
Latin <f?tus> is a fifth declension noun; the nominative plural is
<f?t?s>.  Length markings are normally omitted, so the Latin plural of
<fetus>, if you really *must* use it, is just <fetus>.
Brian
The general rule for English is that words of Latin (or any other)
origin that have become English words should be pluralized in the
regular fashion in English unless they have a common irregular plural.
Oh like English has rules!
Of course it has rules, it just has a list of exceptions that are far
longer than the rules.
I was always taken by the idea that the plural of VAX (an old DEC
computer) should be VAXen.
The Germanic plural suffix "-en" is preserved only in very old words.
Such words are considered "irregular plural forms" in English, nor
applications of a rule. VAXen is a case of people selecting those
irregular forms, deriving a rule from the exceptions, and applying the
new "rule" to non-words (VAX is a pseudo acronym).

The word VAXen was always a joke, never a reality of speech.

No wonder you are contemptuous of English grammar rules.

TCross
Wayne Throop
2010-08-13 21:12:56 UTC
Permalink
: SkyEyes <***@cox.net>
: Give the recent practice in China and India of aborting female fetii,
: it would not surprise me to see a resurgence of polyandry in these two
: countries within the next 10-15 years. If that doesn't happen, you're
: going to have a shitload of frustrated young men who cannot find wives
: on your hands.

Shirley they must invest in vat-girl technology, quick, before
their society becomes seeeeeevil (or evil-er) and we have to nuke them
for their own good.

He's public enemy number one, he's an evil, evil man
He's got a diabolical sense of fun, and an evil, evil plan
'Cause he's eviler, more evil than he was before
Yes he's eviler, and he's taking it door to door

--- Song about Dr Jekyl Doofenshmirtz



Wayne Throop ***@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
Quadibloc
2010-08-15 18:15:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wayne Throop
: Give the recent practice in China and India of aborting female fetii,
: it would not surprise me to see a resurgence of polyandry in these two
: countries within the next 10-15 years.  If that doesn't happen, you're
: going to have a shitload of frustrated young men who cannot find wives
: on your hands.
Shirley they must invest in vat-girl technology, quick, before
their society becomes seeeeeevil (or evil-er) and we have to nuke them
for their own good.
1) Don't call him Shirley.

2) Their society is already eevil, but with lots of frustrated young
men, the leaders might be forced to start a war to retain power. In
that case, we would have to nuke them - but for their intended
victim's good (i.e., Taiwan's good).

You got a *better* answer?

Is it kinder to let the people of Taiwan suffer what would happen to
them, than to stop it at a cost only to the aggressor nation?

John Savard
Wayne Throop
2010-08-15 19:10:57 UTC
Permalink
: Quadibloc <***@ecn.ab.ca>
: 2) Their society is already eevil, but with lots of frustrated young
: men, the leaders might be forced to start a war to retain power. In
: that case, we would have to nuke them - but for their intended
: victim's good (i.e., Taiwan's good).
:
: You got a *better* answer?

Sure. You start by giving up the bizarre superstition that
sexual frustration is a significant cause of social upheavel.


Wayne Throop ***@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw

Mark K Bilbo
2010-08-15 13:00:40 UTC
Permalink
On 8/10/2010 6:18 PM, James A. Donald wrote:> On Tue, 10 Aug 2010
17:58:48 -0400, Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by James A. Donald
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Or husbands.  Polyandry does exist.  It's not especially rare in
Tibet or Nepal.
Actually it is extraordinarily rare in Tibet and Nepal, and
completely unknown elsewhere.
A polyandrous marriage usually consists of one wife, two husbands who
are always brothers or very close blood kin, seven or more
anthropologists, numerous PhD students, and about thirty PhD theses
about the marriage.
Quack, quack Donald!
http://sexpositionsguides.co.cc/polyandry-a-social-system-in-india-
no...
(which, admittedly, seems to has lost its formatting but is still full
of infodump)
In case anyone wants to really start a serious study, instead of
listening to the duck.
"In non-fraternal polyandry, the husbands of a woman need not be
fraternally related to each other. A woman is free to choose partners
from among the persons other than her husband’s brothers. She
successively lives in the apartment of her different husbands and while
she is staying with one, the other husbands have no right to enter.
Among the Todas of Nilgiri a woman has perfect liberty to choose any
individual as her mate. The woman, having several husbands, makes the
arrangement in such a way that she spends the first month with, say,
the first husband, the second month with the second, the third, and so
on, or, according to as she allots the months. The Nayars are
considered to be a specific case for the non-fraternal polyandry.
Aiyappa is of the view (in our personal discussions) that this type of
polyandry or polyandry as such has now become a thing of the past. The
Kotas also practise this kind of polyandry. Against it to some extent
are found tribes like the Karvazhies, Pulayas, Muthuvans and Mannans in
Kerala."
Give the recent practice in China and India of aborting female fetii, it
would not surprise me to see a resurgence of polyandry in these two
countries within the next 10-15 years. If that doesn't happen, you're
going to have a shitload of frustrated young men who cannot find wives
on your hands.
China is not being careful (nor India if they're pulling this one too, I
didn't know).

The end of polygamy has been characterized as "a deal". Cut among upper
and lower class men. Men of wealth could, as it were, "hoard" wives,
leaving men at the bottom with no prospects at all. Leading to, well,
social instability and violence.

The "deal", as it were, was best for all around. While women had less of
a chance to "marry up", nobody's genes were safe in an unstable society.
Neither was the wealth of men in the upper classes. Unstable societies
threaten wealth and the survival of their offspring.

Of course, these are all old, evolutionary issues and modern societies
have moved beyond them. Women no longer "need" men in terms of resources.
Marriage has changed immensely in response. Contra the idiots that babble
about "traditional marriage", marriage looks nothing like it did only a
couple of centuries ago. For that matter, a half century or so ago.

(And I'm not that bothered by our divorce rate. Women were locked into
marriage by having no access to resources of their own. That may reduce
divorce but it's near slavery. Doesn't sound like a "solution" to what
amounts to a statistic more than a "crisis". The rate stays high because
first marriages are more likely to fail. Well, first anything is likely
to fail. First marriages are entered into with neither party having any
experience. People make mistakes. Big whoopee.)

Anyway.

With everything that's changed, those old evolutionary impulses are still
with us. Having too large a pool of men with no prospects of marriage and
family is dangerous. They'll react based on the old impulse that their
ability to pass on their genes is threatened. The survival of their
genetic line is threatened.

It is to meddle with survival instincts. And that never turns out well...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion #1423
Quadibloc
2010-08-15 13:25:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark K Bilbo
With everything that's changed, those old evolutionary impulses are still
with us. Having too large a pool of men with no prospects of marriage and
family is dangerous. They'll react based on the old impulse that their
ability to pass on their genes is threatened. The survival of their
genetic line is threatened.
It is to meddle with survival instincts. And that never turns out well...
Watch out. People are going to start accusing you of being my first
convert!

John Savard
Free Lunch
2010-08-15 17:04:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark K Bilbo
On 8/10/2010 6:18 PM, James A. Donald wrote:> On Tue, 10 Aug 2010
17:58:48 -0400, Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by James A. Donald
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Or husbands.  Polyandry does exist.  It's not especially rare in
Tibet or Nepal.
Actually it is extraordinarily rare in Tibet and Nepal, and
completely unknown elsewhere.
A polyandrous marriage usually consists of one wife, two husbands who
are always brothers or very close blood kin, seven or more
anthropologists, numerous PhD students, and about thirty PhD theses
about the marriage.
Quack, quack Donald!
http://sexpositionsguides.co.cc/polyandry-a-social-system-in-india-
no...
(which, admittedly, seems to has lost its formatting but is still full
of infodump)
In case anyone wants to really start a serious study, instead of
listening to the duck.
"In non-fraternal polyandry, the husbands of a woman need not be
fraternally related to each other. A woman is free to choose partners
from among the persons other than her husband’s brothers. She
successively lives in the apartment of her different husbands and while
she is staying with one, the other husbands have no right to enter.
Among the Todas of Nilgiri a woman has perfect liberty to choose any
individual as her mate. The woman, having several husbands, makes the
arrangement in such a way that she spends the first month with, say,
the first husband, the second month with the second, the third, and so
on, or, according to as she allots the months. The Nayars are
considered to be a specific case for the non-fraternal polyandry.
Aiyappa is of the view (in our personal discussions) that this type of
polyandry or polyandry as such has now become a thing of the past. The
Kotas also practise this kind of polyandry. Against it to some extent
are found tribes like the Karvazhies, Pulayas, Muthuvans and Mannans in
Kerala."
Give the recent practice in China and India of aborting female fetii, it
would not surprise me to see a resurgence of polyandry in these two
countries within the next 10-15 years. If that doesn't happen, you're
going to have a shitload of frustrated young men who cannot find wives
on your hands.
China is not being careful (nor India if they're pulling this one too, I
didn't know).
The end of polygamy has been characterized as "a deal". Cut among upper
and lower class men. Men of wealth could, as it were, "hoard" wives,
leaving men at the bottom with no prospects at all. Leading to, well,
social instability and violence.
The "deal", as it were, was best for all around. While women had less of
a chance to "marry up", nobody's genes were safe in an unstable society.
Neither was the wealth of men in the upper classes. Unstable societies
threaten wealth and the survival of their offspring.
Of course, these are all old, evolutionary issues and modern societies
have moved beyond them. Women no longer "need" men in terms of resources.
Marriage has changed immensely in response. Contra the idiots that babble
about "traditional marriage", marriage looks nothing like it did only a
couple of centuries ago. For that matter, a half century or so ago.
(And I'm not that bothered by our divorce rate. Women were locked into
marriage by having no access to resources of their own. That may reduce
divorce but it's near slavery. Doesn't sound like a "solution" to what
amounts to a statistic more than a "crisis". The rate stays high because
first marriages are more likely to fail. Well, first anything is likely
to fail. First marriages are entered into with neither party having any
experience. People make mistakes. Big whoopee.)
Anyway.
With everything that's changed, those old evolutionary impulses are still
with us. Having too large a pool of men with no prospects of marriage and
family is dangerous. They'll react based on the old impulse that their
ability to pass on their genes is threatened. The survival of their
genetic line is threatened.
It is to meddle with survival instincts. And that never turns out well...
It worked so much better when a leader could kill off a few percent of
the men every generation in a war with the neighboring kingdom without
real risk to the leader or his followers.
Quadibloc
2010-08-15 18:18:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark K Bilbo
China is not being careful (nor India if they're pulling this one too, I
didn't know).
The situation is different in India.

India doesn't have a one-child policy, but it does encourage family
planning.

The Indian government bans disclosing the sex of an unborn child -
because it is true that in the culture of India, as in China, there is
a strong preference for sons. (China is also trying to prevent sex
selection; there, it frequently goes to the length of infanticide.)

John Savard
Olrik
2010-08-11 01:17:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by James A. Donald
On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 17:58:48 -0400, Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Or husbands. Polyandry does exist. It's not especially
rare in Tibet or Nepal.
Actually it is extraordinarily rare in Tibet
"...polyandry in Tibet is de facto the norm in rural areas."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyandry_in_Tibet
Post by James A. Donald
and Nepal, and
completely unknown elsewhere.
A polyandrous marriage usually consists of one wife, two
husbands who are always brothers or very close blood kin,
seven or more anthropologists, numerous PhD students, and
about thirty PhD theses about the marriage.
James A. Donald
2010-08-11 02:30:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Olrik
Post by James A. Donald
On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 17:58:48 -0400, Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Or husbands. Polyandry does exist. It's not especially
rare in Tibet or Nepal.
Actually it is extraordinarily rare in Tibet
"...polyandry in Tibet is de facto the norm in rural areas."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyandry_in_Tibet
Wikipedia is an unreliable source on any topic that is politically
sensitive.

Googling around, I find an number of respectable scholars who believe
that polyandry *used*, and some of them believe it still common -
which scholars also complain about lack of demographic data.

I also find a lot papers that present of numbers about marriage and
children in tibet that do not contain any numbers about polyandry, and
then the scholar says "based on these numbers it seems plausible that
polyandry ...."

Based on these numbers, it seems plausible to me that if polyandry was
common you would have some numbers for it, but no one does.

Still, it is an undeniable fact that a lot of eminent scholars
*believe* that polyandry was or is common in Tibet - but apparently
not when they were there, or in the part of tibet that they were
visiting.
Quadibloc
2010-08-11 01:42:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 14:44:52 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
No. Polygamy, with N greater than 1, takes place with the informed
consent of all the wives except possibly the first, who might not have
known of her husband's future intentions.
Or husbands.  Polyandry does exist.  It's not especially rare in Tibet
or Nepal.
Yes, and there have also been cases of women charged with bigamy in
Western countries.

John Savard
Wayne Throop
2010-08-10 22:10:37 UTC
Permalink
: Quadibloc <***@ecn.ab.ca>
: Polygamy, with N greater than 1, takes place with the informed consent
: of all the wives except possibly the first, who might not have known
: of her husband's future intentions.

Even if she didn't know, or if the husband's intent changed,
all she needs is veto, and Bob's your uncle.

: Bigamy is when a married man, concealing his status, "marries" a woman
: under the pretext that he is single.

Ah. So you have your own private definition of bigamy.
Near as I can tell from online dictionaries, you added
the "concealing" and "under the pretext" bits yourself.

There's that cleared up then.

Wayne Throop ***@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
James A. Donald
2010-08-10 23:23:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wayne Throop
: Polygamy, with N greater than 1, takes place with the informed consent
: of all the wives except possibly the first, who might not have known
: of her husband's future intentions.
Even if she didn't know, or if the husband's intent changed,
all she needs is veto, and Bob's your uncle.
: Bigamy is when a married man, concealing his status, "marries" a woman
: under the pretext that he is single.
Ah. So you have your own private definition of bigamy.
It is the standard definition. Marriage under false pretenses.
People never accuse muslims or fundamentalist mormons of being
bigamists.
Bob T.
2010-08-10 23:36:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wayne Throop
: Polygamy, with N greater than 1, takes place with the informed consent
: of all the wives except possibly the first, who might not have known
: of her husband's future intentions.
Even if she didn't know, or if the husband's intent changed,
all she needs is veto, and Bob's your uncle.
: Bigamy is when a married man, concealing his status, "marries" a woman
: under the pretext that he is single.
Ah.  So you have your own private definition of bigamy.
It is the standard definition.  Marriage under false pretenses.
People never accuse muslims or fundamentalist mormons of being
bigamists.
I know it's shocking, but James is actually right about this one.

- Bob T
Mike Schilling
2010-08-11 00:27:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob T.
Post by James A. Donald
Post by Wayne Throop
: Polygamy, with N greater than 1, takes place with the informed consent
: of all the wives except possibly the first, who might not have known
: of her husband's future intentions.
Even if she didn't know, or if the husband's intent changed,
all she needs is veto, and Bob's your uncle.
: Bigamy is when a married man, concealing his status, "marries" a woman
: under the pretext that he is single.
Ah. So you have your own private definition of bigamy.
It is the standard definition. Marriage under false pretenses.
People never accuse muslims or fundamentalist mormons of being
bigamists.
I know it's shocking, but James is actually right about this one.
And his quip about polyandry and the graduate students was actually pretty
funny.
Chris
2010-08-13 04:05:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Schilling
Post by Bob T.
Post by Wayne Throop
: Polygamy, with N greater than 1, takes place with the informed consent
: of all the wives except possibly the first, who might not have known
: of her husband's future intentions.
Even if she didn't know, or if the husband's intent changed,
all she needs is veto, and Bob's your uncle.
: Bigamy is when a married man, concealing his status, "marries" a woman
: under the pretext that he is single.
Ah.  So you have your own private definition of bigamy.
It is the standard definition.  Marriage under false pretenses.
People never accuse muslims or fundamentalist mormons of being
bigamists.
I know it's shocking, but James is actually right about this one.
And his quip about polyandry and the graduate students was actually pretty
funny.
Yes it was. I started out getting outraged and ended up chuckling.

Chris
Quadibloc
2010-08-11 01:50:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob T.
Post by Wayne Throop
: Bigamy is when a married man, concealing his status, "marries" a woman
: under the pretext that he is single.
Ah.  So you have your own private definition of bigamy.
It is the standard definition.  Marriage under false pretenses.
People never accuse muslims or fundamentalist mormons of being
bigamists.
I know it's shocking, but James is actually right about this one.
Maybe me being right is less shocking? Although despite what goes on
in an Indian caste I hadn't heard about, I believe he is right about
Tibet and Nepal...

John Savard
Mike Schilling
2010-08-11 04:26:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Bob T.
Post by James A. Donald
Post by Wayne Throop
: Bigamy is when a married man, concealing his status, "marries" a woman
: under the pretext that he is single.
Ah. So you have your own private definition of bigamy.
It is the standard definition. Marriage under false pretenses.
People never accuse muslims or fundamentalist mormons of being
bigamists.
I know it's shocking, but James is actually right about this one.
Maybe me being right is less shocking?
Marginally.
Mark K Bilbo
2010-08-11 19:24:34 UTC
Permalink
news:36be004d-529a-4180-95ed-
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Bob T.
Post by James A. Donald
Post by Wayne Throop
: Bigamy is when a married man, concealing his status, "marries" a woman
: under the pretext that he is single.
Ah. So you have your own private definition of bigamy.
It is the standard definition. Marriage under false pretenses.
People never accuse muslims or fundamentalist mormons of being
bigamists.
I know it's shocking, but James is actually right about this one.
Maybe me being right is less shocking?
Marginally.
Stopped clocks?
--
Mark K. Bilbo
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion #1423
------------------------------------------------------------
"It's Christmas, for goodness sake. Think about the baby
Jesus... up in that tower, letting his hair down...
so that the three wise men can climb up and spin the dradel
and see if there are six more weeks of winter."

-- Karen Walker
Howard Brazee
2010-08-11 02:48:35 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 16:36:21 -0700 (PDT), "Bob T."
Post by Bob T.
It is the standard definition.  Marriage under false pretenses.
People never accuse muslims or fundamentalist mormons of being
bigamists.
I know it's shocking, but James is actually right about this one.
Except when people and stated do accuse them of being bigamists.
--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."

- James Madison
James A. Donald
2010-08-12 21:57:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Howard Brazee
Post by Bob T.
I know it's shocking, but James is actually right about this one.
Except when people and stated do accuse them of being bigamists.
But the state does not *charge* them with being bigamists.
Wayne Throop
2010-08-13 00:06:15 UTC
Permalink
: James A. Donald <***@echeque.com>
: But the state does not *charge* them with being bigamists.

Again, do you have a case where they try to get the paperwork through twice?


Wayne Throop ***@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
Jonathan Schattke
2010-08-13 03:18:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by James A. Donald
Post by Howard Brazee
Post by Bob T.
I know it's shocking, but James is actually right about this one.
Except when people and stated do accuse them of being bigamists.
But the state does not *charge* them with being bigamists.
Quack, quack goes the Donald, who obviously never bothers with actual
google searches before spouting nonsense.

Fairfax Man Guilty of Bigamy
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/02/AR2006030201744.html

Military Bigamist's Mom: She's Mentally Ill
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=4216760&page=1

Alleged bigamist might have seven wives
http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/2850932/

And there are MANY more cases documented as being charged with Bigamy.
James A. Donald
2010-08-13 10:58:10 UTC
Permalink
Jonathan Schattke
Post by Jonathan Schattke
Quack, quack goes the Donald, who obviously never bothers
with actual google searches before spouting nonsense.
Fairfax Man Guilty of Bigamy
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/0
3/02/AR2006030201744.html
But he is guilty of bigamy - not polygamy. He married women
under false presences. They were not all living with him.
Each thought she was the only one.

When they go after people for practicing polygamy while
white, they charge them with everything but the kitchen sink
and bigamy.
Jonathan Schattke
2010-08-13 13:39:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by James A. Donald
Jonathan Schattke
Post by Jonathan Schattke
Quack, quack goes the Donald, who obviously never bothers
with actual google searches before spouting nonsense.
Fairfax Man Guilty of Bigamy
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/0
3/02/AR2006030201744.html
But he is guilty of bigamy - not polygamy. He married women
under false presences. They were not all living with him.
Each thought she was the only one.
When they go after people for practicing polygamy while
white, they charge them with everything but the kitchen sink
and bigamy.
I believe you have completely lost track of your argument, and are
arguing for arguments sake.

YOU claimed NO ONE was EVER charged with BIGAMY. I put up a few
instances where people most definitely were.

I could have added some where a man married a woman, and both knew he
was still married to the first wife - and BOTH the man and the second
wife got charged with Bigamy.

Why keep quacking, Donald?

You really have only 3 options: shut up and hope no one notices, admit
you were wrong and don't know a damn thing about the subject, or keep
looking like a fool.
Wayne Throop
2010-08-13 14:41:42 UTC
Permalink
: Jonathan Schattke <***@gmail.com>
: YOU claimed NO ONE was EVER charged with BIGAMY. I put up a few
: instances where people most definitely were.

This is traditional. When James makes a statement of the form
"there are no X", it is often fairly easy to find instances of X,
which match his description of X exactly. He will then find ways that
the instances you found, don't count, often on the most amusing pretexts.
Or, as I've said, in Donaldese, "there are no X" means "there are some X,
more than I'll admit".

: You really have only 3 options: shut up and hope no one notices, admit
: you were wrong and don't know a damn thing about the subject, or keep
: looking like a fool.

"Possibilities are three", as the Steerswomen say.
James most often chooses the third.


Wayne Throop ***@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2010-08-13 14:56:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wayne Throop
: YOU claimed NO ONE was EVER charged with BIGAMY. I put up a few
: instances where people most definitely were.
This is traditional. When James makes a statement of the form
"there are no X", it is often fairly easy to find instances of X,
which match his description of X exactly. He will then find ways that
the instances you found, don't count, often on the most amusing pretexts.
Or, as I've said, in Donaldese, "there are no X" means "there are some X,
more than I'll admit".
Actually, while I haven't been following this one closely, I *think*
James' claim was that "No one is charged with bigamy who is practicing
*POLYGAMY* in the standard sense" -- that is, they charge Joe Cad with
Bigamy when he has Wife 1 in Texas, Wife 2 in New York, and Wife 3 in
California and neither Wife 1, 2, or 3 is aware of the others, but Joe
Poly, who lives with Wife 1, Wife 2, and Wife 3 in State X, is not
charged with bigamy.

So his claim wasn't quite as sweeping as you make it, if I am correct.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Jonathan Schattke
2010-08-13 15:43:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
: YOU claimed NO ONE was EVER charged with BIGAMY. I put up a few
: instances where people most definitely were.
This is traditional. When James makes a statement of the form
"there are no X", it is often fairly easy to find instances of X,
which match his description of X exactly. He will then find ways that
the instances you found, don't count, often on the most amusing pretexts.
Or, as I've said, in Donaldese, "there are no X" means "there are some X,
more than I'll admit".
Actually, while I haven't been following this one closely, I *think*
James' claim was that "No one is charged with bigamy who is practicing
*POLYGAMY* in the standard sense" -- that is, they charge Joe Cad with
Bigamy when he has Wife 1 in Texas, Wife 2 in New York, and Wife 3 in
California and neither Wife 1, 2, or 3 is aware of the others, but Joe
Poly, who lives with Wife 1, Wife 2, and Wife 3 in State X, is not
charged with bigamy.
So his claim wasn't quite as sweeping as you make it, if I am correct.
On 8/10/2010 6:23 PM, James A. Donald wrote:
: On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 22:10:37 GMT, ***@sheol.org (Wayne Throop)
: wrote:
:> Ah. So you have your own private definition of bigamy.
:
: It is the standard definition. Marriage under false pretenses.
: People never accuse muslims or fundamentalist mormons of being
: bigamists.

Warren Jeffs, 2 other FLDS leaders charged with bigamy
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/22141/warren-jeffs-bigamy
"Bigamy charges have been filed in Texas against jailed polygamist
leader Warren Jeffs and two other members of the Fundamentalist Church
of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints."

Is that clear enough about what he actually said and what actually is
the case?
James A. Donald
2010-08-13 19:03:58 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 10:56:11 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Actually, while I haven't been following this one closely, I *think*
James' claim was that "No one is charged with bigamy who is practicing
*POLYGAMY* in the standard sense" -- that is, they charge Joe Cad with
Bigamy when he has Wife 1 in Texas, Wife 2 in New York, and Wife 3 in
California and neither Wife 1, 2, or 3 is aware of the others, but Joe
Poly, who lives with Wife 1, Wife 2, and Wife 3 in State X, is not
charged with bigamy.
Exactly: I said that white polygamists are charged with "everything
but the kitchen sink and bigamy".
Bill Snyder
2010-08-13 19:36:22 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 14 Aug 2010 05:03:58 +1000, James A. Donald
Post by James A. Donald
On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 10:56:11 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Actually, while I haven't been following this one closely, I *think*
James' claim was that "No one is charged with bigamy who is practicing
*POLYGAMY* in the standard sense" -- that is, they charge Joe Cad with
Bigamy when he has Wife 1 in Texas, Wife 2 in New York, and Wife 3 in
California and neither Wife 1, 2, or 3 is aware of the others, but Joe
Poly, who lives with Wife 1, Wife 2, and Wife 3 in State X, is not
charged with bigamy.
Exactly: I said that white polygamists are charged with "everything
but the kitchen sink and bigamy".
And, as usual, you lied like a rug.

Warren Jeffs, who has been considerably in the news for the last
year or so:

<http://www.ketknbc.com/news/utah-governor-sending-jeffs-to-texas-for-trial-on-bigamy-sexual-assault-charges>

And Jeffs's replacement as head of the polygamous sect, too:

<http://www.lvrj.com/news/new-leader-for-sect-faces-charges-of-bigamy-in-texas-84438397.html>

And a few less-publicized members, not merely charged, but
convicted, while we're at it: "Texas prosecutors have
successfully convicted seven FLDS men on crimes such as sexual
assault against a child and bigamy -- a 100 percent record."

<http://www.aolnews.com/nation/article/polygamist-leader-may-face-tougher-case-in-texas/19591036>

Oh, and Mormons more generally; even Utah finally started taking
it seriously down a few years back:

<http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1331016/Wives-and-children-weep-as-Mormon-is-convicted-of-bigamy.html>

Try another lie, Duck. That one's about had it.
--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank]
Mike Schilling
2010-08-14 02:29:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Actually, while I haven't been following this one closely, I *think*
James' claim was that "No one is charged with bigamy who is practicing
*POLYGAMY* in the standard sense" -- that is, they charge Joe Cad with
Bigamy when he has Wife 1 in Texas, Wife 2 in New York, and Wife 3 in
California and neither Wife 1, 2, or 3 is aware of the others, but Joe
Poly, who lives with Wife 1, Wife 2, and Wife 3 in State X, is not charged
with bigamy.
So his claim wasn't quite as sweeping as you make it, if I am correct.
Though he keeps saying "white" for no reason, so he's still The Duck.
Wayne Throop
2010-08-14 02:54:14 UTC
Permalink
:: Actually, while I haven't been following this one closely, I *think*
:: James' claim was that "No one is charged with bigamy who is
:: practicing *POLYGAMY* in the standard sense" -- that is, they charge
:: Joe Cad with Bigamy when he has Wife 1 in Texas, Wife 2 in New York,
:: and Wife 3 in California and neither Wife 1, 2, or 3 is aware of the
:: others, but Joe Poly, who lives with Wife 1, Wife 2, and Wife 3 in
:: State X, is not charged with bigamy.

: Though he keeps saying "white" for no reason, so he's still The Duck.

More importantly, my memory says an example of *exactly* that case
was posted upthread: a man living with wives all aware of each other,
charged with bigamy.

A quick google of 'mormon "charged with bigamy"'
finds quite a few cases on-point even for the restriced case
where the wives are aware of each other. As well as a site that says
"few mormons were prosecuted for bigamy because the government had
difficulty obtaining testomy about plural wedding ceremonies".
But that's not the same as "never", and indeed, I easily google
some recent moves to maake obtaining such evidence easier, basicalaly
by "if it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck,and cohabits like
a duck, it's a marrige" rulings.

Note of course that, as usual, James didn't say "it's rare",
he said it *never* occurs, and further implied that it was because
polygamy isn't bigamy. But it does occur, and polygamy does
count as bigamy in law.

James' claim that they get charged with everything else under the sun
(such as rape and child abuse), but not bigamy, is simply incorrect,
as anybody can google for themselves given two or three minutes
of browsing.


Wayne Throop ***@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
James A. Donald
2010-08-13 19:02:10 UTC
Permalink
--
: was EVER charged with BIGAMY. I put up a few instances
: where people most definitely were.
This is traditional. When James makes a statement of the
form "there are no X", it is often fairly easy to find
instances of X, which match his description of X exactly.
liar

Whenever I say "There are no white crows", you guys present a
crow as counterexample", and when I point out your crow is
black, you say that is irrelevant.

In this case I said "Polygamists are never charged with
bigamy".

I did not say "no one is ever charged with bigamy".

I said bigamists are charged with bigamy, and *white*
polygamists are charged with any random crap they can think
up "everything but the kitchens sink and bigamy"
Ray Fischer
2010-08-14 03:31:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by James A. Donald
: was EVER charged with BIGAMY. I put up a few instances
: where people most definitely were.
This is traditional. When James makes a statement of the
form "there are no X", it is often fairly easy to find
instances of X, which match his description of X exactly.
liar
He isn't.
Post by James A. Donald
Whenever I say "There are no white crows", you guys present a
For example, you provided a chart that was supposed to show no change
in sea ice. I showed how it showed declining sea ice. After some
bullshitting on your part you finally stated that your evidence was
worthless.

That's very typical of you.
--
Ray Fischer
***@sonic.net
James A. Donald
2010-08-13 18:49:42 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 08:39:19 -0500, Jonathan Schattke
Post by Jonathan Schattke
Post by James A. Donald
Jonathan Schattke
Post by Jonathan Schattke
Quack, quack goes the Donald, who obviously never bothers
with actual google searches before spouting nonsense.
Fairfax Man Guilty of Bigamy
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/0
3/02/AR2006030201744.html
But he is guilty of bigamy - not polygamy. He married women
under false presences. They were not all living with him.
Each thought she was the only one.
When they go after people for practicing polygamy while
white, they charge them with everything but the kitchen sink
and bigamy.
I believe you have completely lost track of your argument, and are
arguing for arguments sake.
YOU claimed NO ONE was EVER charged with BIGAMY.
I claimed that polygamists were never charged with bigamy. You
present an example of a man charged with bigamy, who is not a
polygamist.
Mark K Bilbo
2010-08-11 19:24:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob T.
Post by Wayne Throop
: Polygamy, with N greater than 1, takes place with the informed
consent : of all the wives except possibly the first, who might not
have known : of her husband's future intentions.
Even if she didn't know, or if the husband's intent changed, all she
needs is veto, and Bob's your uncle.
: Bigamy is when a married man, concealing his status, "marries" a
woman : under the pretext that he is single.
Ah.  So you have your own private definition of bigamy.
It is the standard definition.  Marriage under false pretenses. People
never accuse muslims or fundamentalist mormons of being bigamists.
I know it's shocking, but James is actually right about this one.
AIIIIIEEURK!

<gasp>

WARN people before you post something like that!
--
Mark K. Bilbo
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion #1423
------------------------------------------------------------
"If 50 million people believe a foolish thing,
it is still a foolish thing"

-- Anatole France
Chris
2010-08-13 04:04:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob T.
Post by Wayne Throop
: Polygamy, with N greater than 1, takes place with the informed consent
: of all the wives except possibly the first, who might not have known
: of her husband's future intentions.
Even if she didn't know, or if the husband's intent changed,
all she needs is veto, and Bob's your uncle.
: Bigamy is when a married man, concealing his status, "marries" a woman
: under the pretext that he is single.
Ah.  So you have your own private definition of bigamy.
It is the standard definition.  Marriage under false pretenses.
People never accuse muslims or fundamentalist mormons of being
bigamists.
I know it's shocking, but James is actually right about this one.
- Bob T
No he's not (at least the definition of bigamy). Which is not
shocking.

Chris
Jonathan Schattke
2010-08-11 00:01:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by James A. Donald
Post by Wayne Throop
: Polygamy, with N greater than 1, takes place with the informed consent
: of all the wives except possibly the first, who might not have known
: of her husband's future intentions.
Even if she didn't know, or if the husband's intent changed,
all she needs is veto, and Bob's your uncle.
: Bigamy is when a married man, concealing his status, "marries" a woman
: under the pretext that he is single.
Ah. So you have your own private definition of bigamy.
It is the standard definition. Marriage under false pretenses.
People never accuse muslims or fundamentalist mormons of being
bigamists.
Tell that to the Mormon bigamists who've been to Jail.

Quack, quack Donald!
James A. Donald
2010-08-11 02:00:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jonathan Schattke
Post by James A. Donald
It is the standard definition. Marriage under false
pretenses. People never accuse muslims or fundamentalist
mormons of being bigamists.
Jonathan Schattke
Post by Jonathan Schattke
Tell that to the Mormon bigamists who've been to Jail.
They generally charge them with contributing to the
delinquency of a minor or some such trumped up charge -
though the rate of underage pregnancy in the FCLDS is about
the same as the rate in texas, so the rate of underage sex is
probably a bit less.

The real charge of course is practicing polygamy while white
- but that is not what they officially charge them with.
Chris
2010-08-13 04:03:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wayne Throop
: Polygamy, with N greater than 1, takes place with the informed consent
: of all the wives except possibly the first, who might not have known
: of her husband's future intentions.
Even if she didn't know, or if the husband's intent changed,
all she needs is veto, and Bob's your uncle.
: Bigamy is when a married man, concealing his status, "marries" a woman
: under the pretext that he is single.
Ah.  So you have your own private definition of bigamy.
It is the standard definition.  Marriage under false pretenses.
No it isn't. Marriage under false pretenses would be something like
fraud. According to Merriam-Webster, the definition of bigamy is:

"the act of entering into a marriage with one person while still
legally married to another"

Note it says nothing about false pretenses. Also note the prefix
"bi-". You know, that means something.
People never accuse muslims or fundamentalist mormons of being
bigamists.
While I do not know a lot about Islamic marriages, you are correct
that Mormons are rarely accused of bigamy. However, polygamy is not
sanctioned by the Church of Latter Day Saints, and it is illegal in
all 50 states. Also, many of the fundamentalist Mormons that engage in
polygamy "marry" girls under that legal age of consent, and use the
children resulting from such "marriages" to claim government support.

http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/anderson.cooper.360/blog/2006/05/how-polygamy-affects-your-wallet.html

Chris
Rob Par
2010-08-11 01:40:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wayne Throop
: If one applies, as I think one should, the standard that for
: intercourse not to be rape, one's partner must give full, freely-
: given, and informed consent, then bigamy fails the final element.
Um. Why?
: But even if polygamy is legal, we need to make sure we don't confuse
: it with bigamy. In some cases, bigamy should be prosecuted as rape.
Apparently I'm confused. So far as I knew, bigamy was just
polygamy with N=2 (or possibly, N goes from 1 to 2
instead of from 0 to M, but still).
Rob Par
2010-08-11 01:43:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wayne Throop
: If one applies, as I think one should, the standard that for
: intercourse not to be rape, one's partner must give full, freely-
: given, and informed consent, then bigamy fails the final element.
Um. Why?
: But even if polygamy is legal, we need to make sure we don't confuse
: it with bigamy. In some cases, bigamy should be prosecuted as rape.
Apparently I'm confused. So far as I knew, bigamy was just
polygamy with N=2 (or possibly, N goes from 1 to 2
instead of from 0 to M, but still).
Polygamy the wives know they are one of several, bigamy the wives all
think they are the only one.
Michael Price
2010-08-11 05:00:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wayne Throop
: If one applies, as I think one should, the standard that for
: intercourse not to be rape, one's partner must give full, freely-
: given, and informed consent, then bigamy fails the final element.
Um.  Why?
: But even if polygamy is legal, we need to make sure we don't confuse
: it with bigamy.  In some cases, bigamy should be prosecuted as rape.
Apparently I'm confused.  So far as I knew, bigamy was just
polygamy with N=2 (or possibly, N goes from 1 to 2
instead of from 0 to M, but still).
There once was an old man of Lyme
Who married three wives at a time,
When asked, "Why a third?"
He replied, "One's absurd!
And bigamy, sir, is a crime.

William Cosmo Monkhouse
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2010-08-10 21:40:01 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 13:11:21 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by raven1
You should be celebrating this, given that the Bible is perfectly fine
with the idea.
Consensual polygamy is somewhat troubling with its implications for
the equality of women.
That assumes polygyny, and no polyandry.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
I'm serializing novels at http://www.ethshar.com/TheFinalCalling01.html
and http://www.watt-evans.com/realmsoflight1.html
James A. Donald
2010-08-10 23:27:13 UTC
Permalink
Quadibloc
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Quadibloc
Consensual polygamy is somewhat troubling with its implications for
the equality of women.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
That assumes polygyny, and no polyandry.
While there are always some wierdos, polyandry is not part of human
nature, and polygyny is part of human nature. For humans, polygamy is
polygyny.
Jack Tingle
2010-08-11 00:10:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wayne Throop
Quadibloc
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Quadibloc
Consensual polygamy is somewhat troubling with its implications for
the equality of women.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
That assumes polygyny, and no polyandry.
While there are always some wierdos, polyandry is not part of human
nature, and polygyny is part of human nature. For humans, polygamy is
polygyny.
Probably someone should tell all of those Himalyans, then. They'll want
to know they've been doing it wrong so they can conform to the Official
Arbiter of Human Nature.

Me, since SoT has declared it, and it _must_ therefore be true, I'm
looking to find a way to make an easy buck on polygamy. Hmmmm. I wonder
if Rhode Island would be open to a law change and a state-licensed
concession? They're pretty open minded down there. Resort, Indian
casino, polygamous marriage chapel and brothel... Outstanding! See
Newport and die happy.

Regards,
Jack Tingle
Wayne Throop
2010-08-11 00:31:55 UTC
Permalink
:: It is the standard definition. Marriage under false pretenses.

Well. Somebody needs to fix all those dictionaries then.

:: People never accuse muslims or fundamentalist mormons of being
:: bigamists.

So, easily googlable headlines like "Bigamist Mormon Cult Leader Arrested"
need fixed too.

: I know it's shocking, but James is actually right about this one.

Riiiiiiight.

Enyhoo, returning to the real world from Donaldland,
I expect that the only reason "bigamy" gets conflated with "two marriages,
secretly", and or "false pretenses" is because, oddly enough, having
two spouses is illegal, at least in the US. So you have to keep
*some*body in the dark.

I could of course be wrong. Along with all those dictionaries.


Wayne Throop ***@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
James A. Donald
2010-08-11 02:36:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wayne Throop
So, easily googlable headlines like "Bigamist Mormon Cult
Leader Arrested" need fixed too.
You will notice he was not charged with bigamy, and that very
few headlines refer to him as a bigamist.

They also call him a pedophile - does not mean he is one.
Mostly what it means is that the Cathedral does not like
those who practice polygamy while white.
Wayne Throop
2010-08-11 03:34:36 UTC
Permalink
:::: People never accuse muslims or fundamentalist mormons of being
:::: bigamists.

::: People never accuse muslims or fundamentalist mormons of being
::: bigamists.

:: So, easily googlable headlines like "Bigamist Mormon Cult Leader
:: Arrested" need fixed too.

: James A. Donald <***@echeque.com>
: You will notice he was not charged with bigamy, and that very few
: headlines refer to him as a bigamist.

Ah, so when you say "accuse", you mean "formally charge".
So... do mormons tend to take out multiple licenses, or do they
just have their minister of choice pronounce themselves married?
Similarly, do muslims tend to try to get the paperwork through
in US jurisdictions?


Wayne Throop ***@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
James A. Donald
2010-08-12 22:03:50 UTC
Permalink
James A. Donald
Post by Wayne Throop
: You will notice he was not charged with bigamy, and that
: very few headlines refer to him as a bigamist.
Wayne Throop
Post by Wayne Throop
Ah, so when you say "accuse", you mean "formally charge".
An accusation is intended to be taken seriously. They call
white polygamists bigamists the way they call them pedophiles
- it just like children in the schoolyard shouting names,
like calling tea partiers "tea baggers", "raaaaacists", and
so forth. No one actually believes a "racist" is a racist,
and no one actually believes a white polygamist is bigamist,
or that a motherfucker actually fucked his mother.
Mike Schilling
2010-08-11 04:25:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wayne Throop
:: It is the standard definition. Marriage under false pretenses.
Well. Somebody needs to fix all those dictionaries then.
The first online dictionary I found:

The criminal offense of marrying one person while still legally married to
another.

See right there: criminal offense.
Post by Wayne Throop
:: People never accuse muslims or fundamentalist mormons of being
:: bigamists.
So, easily googlable headlines like "Bigamist Mormon Cult Leader Arrested"
need fixed too.
This one?
http://www.justgambling.co.uk/2006/08/30/bigamist-mormon-cult-leader-arrested/
"Bigamist" doesn't appear in the story; it's an invention of the
less-than-literate headline writer. Or perhaps, being a shorter word,
"bigamist" fit better. The Big Love folks don't commit bigamy, because they
don't marry more than one wife *legally*. When they're arrested, it's for
things like marrying underage girls
Wayne Throop
2010-08-11 04:50:20 UTC
Permalink
: "Mike Schilling" <***@hotmail.com>
: The criminal offense of marrying one person while still legally married to
: another.

Ah, possily one based on the 1913 Webster. That's what it says.
It also notes

In the canon law bigamy was the marrying of two virgins
successively, or one after the death of the other, or once marrying
a widow. This disqualified a man for orders, and for holding
ecclesiastical offices. Shakespeare uses the word in the latter
sense.

None of those senses was illegal.
Though we would not now call them bigamy at all.
Merriam-Webster sez

the act of entering into a marriage with one person while still
legally married to another

which doesn't seem to imply it's illegal; that's a separate issue.
Wikipedia sez

Bigamy is the act or condition of a any person marrying (any form of
marriage) yet another person while still being lawfully married.

And there are several places, both in wikipedia and other sources,
that do things like list places where bigamy is legal. Such as
Saskathawan (for some cases), or Egypt. They still call it bigamy
when doing so.

So like I said, I rather expect the "the crime of" prefix added to
"getting married while already married" is purely conflation of
the fact that it's often illegal with the definition of the state-of-being.
I could be wrong about that, but it's what I expect, from the way
the word gets used, and the way more than one attempt at formal
definition is phrased.


Wayne Throop ***@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
James A. Donald
2010-08-11 01:26:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack Tingle
Post by James A. Donald
While there are always some wierdos, polyandry is not part of human
nature, and polygyny is part of human nature. For humans, polygamy is
polygyny.
Jack Tingle
Post by Jack Tingle
Probably someone should tell all of those Himalyans
The whole half dozen of them
James A. Donald
2010-08-11 02:37:40 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 11 Aug 2010 11:26:11 +1000, James A. Donald
Post by Jack Tingle
Post by Jack Tingle
Post by James A. Donald
While there are always some wierdos, polyandry is not part of human
nature, and polygyny is part of human nature. For humans, polygamy is
polygyny.
Jack Tingle
Post by Jack Tingle
Probably someone should tell all of those Himalyans
The whole half dozen of them
On checking around, I find that there is a fair bit of respectable
scholarly opinion that polyandry is or was common in Tibet, but a
curious shortage of actual numbers.
Quadibloc
2010-08-11 01:52:50 UTC
Permalink
On 8/10/2010 7:27 PM, James A. Donald wrote:>
Post by James A. Donald
While there are always some wierdos, polyandry is not part of human
nature, and polygyny is part of human nature.  For humans, polygamy is
polygyny.
Probably someone should tell all of those Himalyans, then. They'll want
to know they've been doing it wrong so they can conform to the Official
Arbiter of Human Nature.
Their case _is_ unusual. The fact that the husbands are blood kin
shows how they deal with the sociobiological problems.

And the polygyny in India is sort of a serial polygyny, although it's
on a month-by-month rotating basis... so as to provide the man with
the knowledge of paternity.

So these are "exceptions which prove the rule" - both cases include a
way of *dealing with* the difficulties polygyny presents which
polyandry does not.

John Savard
Butch Malahide
2010-08-11 02:19:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
And the polygyny in India is sort of a serial polygyny, although it's
on a month-by-month rotating basis... so as to provide the man with
the knowledge of paternity.
So these are "exceptions which prove the rule" - both cases include a
way of *dealing with* the difficulties polygyny presents which
polyandry does not.
Are you sure you haven'y got polyandry and polygyny mixed up?
Polyandry = many men, polygyny = many women.
Quadibloc
2010-08-11 03:45:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Butch Malahide
Are you sure you haven'y got polyandry and polygyny mixed up?
Yes, I did make that slip in the previous post.

John Savard
Wayne Throop
2010-08-11 00:43:41 UTC
Permalink
: James A. Donald <***@echeque.com>
: While there are always some wierdos, polyandry is not part of human
: nature, and polygyny is part of human nature.

As I said, by "completely unknown", James means "there are some,
more than I'm willing to admit".


Wayne Throop ***@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
Mark K Bilbo
2010-08-11 19:21:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by raven1
On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 04:18:04 -0700 (PDT), Sound of Trumpet
Post by Sound of Trumpet
I am bullish on polygamy. It has a bright future. Now that The Very
Reverend Vaughn Walker, High Priest of the Church of Political
Correctness, has cleared the way for the creation of the oxymoronic idea
of “homosexual marriage,” polygamy's life just got a whole lot easier.
You should be celebrating this, given that the Bible is perfectly fine
with the idea.
And what the babble says should be law right?
--
Mark K. Bilbo
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion #1423
------------------------------------------------------------
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants
them to do because I notice it always coincides with their
own desires."

-- Susan B. Anthony
Spartakus
2010-08-10 16:12:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sound of Trumpet
Polygamy: The New Growth Stock
ClownHall ^ | August 9, 2010 | ALLEN HUNT
Posted on 09 August 2010 14:40:36 by Mrs. Don-o
I am bullish on polygamy. It has a bright future. Now that The Very
Reverend Vaughn Walker, High Priest of the Church of Political
Correctness, has cleared the way for the creation of the oxymoronic
idea of “homosexual marriage,” polygamy's life just got a whole lot
easier.
Is it possible that somebody is finally standing up to all those
PointyHeadLibberulKafeteriaKristians who pick and choose their
theologies according to the demands of their idolatries?

Are we returning at long last to True Bible-based Christianity,
including our God-Given Right to own Concubines?

/drieux
Quadibloc
2010-08-10 20:21:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Spartakus
Are we returning at long last to True Bible-based Christianity,
including our God-Given Right to own Concubines?
As it happens, the Bible also doesn't prohibit people from marrying
their first cousins.

Hence, only some U.S. states prohibit this, as this little ditty on
YouTube points out:



However, according to Wikipedia, Europe doesn't ban this practice at
all, and proposals to do so have been criticized as being
discriminatory against Muslims. Hence, perhaps the fellow is being
unfair to the United States.

John Savard
James A. Donald
2010-08-10 23:28:14 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 09:12:30 -0700 (PDT), Spartakus
Post by Spartakus
Are we returning at long last to True Bible-based Christianity,
including our God-Given Right to own Concubines?
Sign me up. Jesus just spoke to me about concumbines.
Bill Allen
2010-08-10 16:56:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sound of Trumpet
My first thought: if “homosexual marriage” is acceptable, on what
basis could one possibly say that this woman's innovative “marriage”
is not?
Certainly not the bible.
You've never read that nutty tome, have you?
Mark K Bilbo
2010-08-10 19:49:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sound of Trumpet
Polygamy: The New Growth Stock
No such institution here. Equity in existing institutions doesn't make
new ones appear like magic no matter how many times you people lie.
--
Mark K. Bilbo
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion #1423
------------------------------------------------------------
[God explaining the doctrine of free will.]

"In order not to impair human liberty, I will be ignorant
of what I know, I will thicken upon my eyes the veils
I have pierced, and in my blind clear-sightedness I will
let myself be surprised by what I have foreseen."

-- Anatole France
James A. Donald
2010-08-10 20:39:05 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 04:18:04 -0700 (PDT), Sound of Trumpet
Post by Sound of Trumpet
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2567199/posts
Polygamy: The New Growth Stock
TownHall ^ | August 9, 2010 | ALLEN HUNT
Posted on 09 August 2010 14:40:36 by Mrs. Don-o
I am bullish on polygamy. It has a bright future. Now that The Very
Reverend Vaughn Walker, High Priest of the Church of Political
Correctness, has cleared the way for the creation of the oxymoronic
idea of “homosexual marriage,” polygamy's life just got a whole lot
easier.
I wish you were right: But polygamy is, for our speices, polygyny,
and polygyny implies patriarchy, which is horribly politically
incorrect, whereas homosexuality is politically correct.
Bob T.
2010-08-10 21:42:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by raven1
On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 04:18:04 -0700 (PDT), Sound of Trumpet
Post by Sound of Trumpet
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2567199/posts
Polygamy: The New Growth Stock
TownHall ^ | August 9, 2010 | ALLEN HUNT
Posted on 09 August 2010 14:40:36 by Mrs. Don-o
I am bullish on polygamy. It has a bright future. Now that The Very
Reverend Vaughn Walker, High Priest of the Church of Political
Correctness, has cleared the way for the creation of the oxymoronic
idea of “homosexual marriage,” polygamy's life just got a whole lot
easier.
I wish you were right:  But polygamy is, for our speices, polygyny,
and polygyny implies patriarchy, which is horribly politically
incorrect, whereas homosexuality is politically correct.
Unless, of course, you live in the 21st Century, in which case it's
probably just polyamory, which is not patriarchical at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyamory

- Bob T
James A. Donald
2010-08-10 23:05:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob T.
Post by raven1
I wish you were right:  But polygamy is, for our speices,
polygyny, and polygyny implies patriarchy, which is
horribly politically incorrect, whereas homosexuality is
politically correct.
"Bob T."
Post by Bob T.
Unless, of course, you live in the 21st Century, in which
case it's probably just polyamory, which is not
patriarchical at all.
There is no polyamory among human heterosexuals. There are
friends with benefits - which is in practice polygyny with
less commitment by the man and less stability than in
polygamous patriarchy. A man whose female friends provide
him benefits invariably has several such at a time, but a
heterosexual woman usually only one such at a time, though
which one it is changes from time to time.

Indeed, there are no marriages where husband and wife share
the housework equally. Some academics went looking for such
marriages, found only a few, and then found that they were
not marriages - for when the husband accepted an equal share
of the housework, his wife stopped sleeping with him, perhaps
feeling him to be insufficiently manly.

The Tea Party homosexuals propose as solution to the gay
marriage problem
<http://blog.jim.com/culture/a-solution-to-the-gay-marriage-and-the-covenant-marriage-problem.html>
getting the state out of the marriage business, and instead
let people draw up whatever nuptial contracts they please -
but of course the supreme court would doubtless rule such a
simple solution unconstitutional.

Perhaps we could instead sneak covenant marriage in under the
cover of legalizing polyamory and bdsm.
Bob T.
2010-08-10 23:24:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by James A. Donald
Post by Bob T.
Post by raven1
I wish you were right:  But polygamy is, for our speices,
polygyny, and polygyny implies patriarchy, which is
horribly politically incorrect, whereas homosexuality is
politically correct.
"Bob T."
Post by Bob T.
Unless, of course, you live in the 21st Century, in which
case it's probably just polyamory, which is not
patriarchical at all.
There is no polyamory among human heterosexuals.
So... when I was married and dating a married woman, while my wife
dated a single guy... we weren't really polyamorous? And my friends
in a six-person group marriage - they aren't really polyamorous? And
my other friend who has had two boyfriends for years - she isn't
really polyamorous?
Post by James A. Donald
 There are friends with benefits - which is in practice polygyny with  
less commitment by the man and less stability than in  
polygamous patriarchy.  A man whose female friends provide  
him benefits invariably has several such at a time, but a  
heterosexual woman usually only one such at a time, though  
which one it is changes from time to time.
For a person who doesn't have the slightest idea what he is talking
about, you certainly are arrogant.
Post by James A. Donald
Indeed, there are no marriages where husband and wife share  
the housework equally.  Some academics went looking for such
marriages, found only a few, and then found that they were  
not marriages - for when the husband accepted an equal share
of the housework, his wife stopped sleeping with him, perhaps
feeling him to be insufficiently manly.
Oh! I just remembered who I'm talking to - of course you are arrogant
about things you don't understand - it's your entire shtick.
Post by James A. Donald
 The Tea Party homosexuals propose as solution to the gay
marriage problem <http://blog.jim.com/culture/a-solution-to-the-gay-marriage-and-the-co...>
getting the state out of the marriage business, and instead
let people draw up whatever nuptial contracts they please -
but of course the supreme court would doubtless rule such a
simple solution unconstitutional.
Hmm... Tea Party homosexuals... sounds like black members of the KKK
to me.
Post by James A. Donald
Perhaps we could instead sneak covenant marriage in under the
cover of legalizing polyamory and bdsm.  
Polyamory and BDSM are already legal, and convenant marriage is a
terrible idea.

- Bob T
James A. Donald
2010-08-11 01:19:24 UTC
Permalink
"Bob T."
Post by Bob T.
So... when I was married and dating a married woman, while
my wife dated a single guy... we weren't really
polyamorous?
Your wife stopped fucking you when she started fucking the
single guy, and the married woman was not fucking her
husband.
Post by Bob T.
And my friends in a six-person group marriage - they aren't
really polyamorous? And my other friend who has had two
boyfriends for years - she isn't really polyamorous?
"Open relationships" in practice means that some men are
women's hand bags, the handbags of women that are other men's
fuck toys. Always, in open relationships, one man is the
winner, and the other men the losers who do the housework -
about as open as a sultan's harem with eunuchs in it.
Post by Bob T.
Post by James A. Donald
The Tea Party homosexuals propose as solution to the gay
marriage problem <http://blog.jim.com/culture/a-solution-to-the-gay-marriage-and-the-co...>
getting the state out of the marriage business, and instead
let people draw up whatever nuptial contracts they please -
but of course the supreme court would doubtless rule such a
simple solution unconstitutional.
Hmm... Tea Party homosexuals... sounds like black members of the KKK
to me.
The tea party has about the same proportion of non whites as
the general population. You can tell by how narrowly framed
the msm photos are. Remember that incident when a black tea
partier was carrying a gun, and the msm photoshopped him into
a white klansman?

Here is a news conference between the (whiter people) press,
and a tea party black caucus:


Some hilarious lines "If there is no spit, you must acquit"

One of the tea partiers has a great pimp hat. I have a hat
like that. It really does pull the chicks, even though I am
white. Doubtless it works better if one is black.

The msm was totally shot down in flames, I was laughing all
the time.

"At least Monica Lewinsky kept her skirt. Where is the
spittle"

On average, blacks tend to have lower IQ and shorter time
preference than whites, but no one can doubt they do way
better than whites at style and cool. Their sentences tend
to be simpler, but they can extemporize better. And in this
wondeful interview ambush, the whiter people of the press
were just slaughtered by these classic black advantages which
these black conservatives demonstrated so compellingly. The
press, instead of ambushing, was ambushed.

The whiter people press sentences were longer and more
complex, but failed to actually say anything. Compare with
the Tea Partier "If there is no spit, you must acquit." I
guess I cannot get too snooty about black diction.
Post by Bob T.
Post by James A. Donald
Perhaps we could instead sneak covenant marriage in under
the cover of legalizing polyamory and bdsm.  
Polyamory and BDSM are already legal,
Nuptial contracts that give the women less rights than the
state approves are not. A seventeen year old girl can
contract for gigantic college debts that cannot be expunged
by bankruptcy, in return for some academic training that will
not necessarily give her a career, but she cannot agree to a
nuptial contract where she commits herself to be always
sexually available for one man, and never for another.
Bob T.
2010-08-11 01:27:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by James A. Donald
"Bob T."
Post by Bob T.
So... when I was married and dating a married woman, while
my wife dated a single guy... we weren't really
polyamorous?
Your wife stopped fucking you when she started fucking the
single guy, and the married woman was not fucking her husband.
Wow! Even though you don't know me, you know my personal history
exactly... wrong.

And, James, I know that you've been told this many times before,
but... you certainly are an arrogant putz. You actually have the gall
to think that you know more about my life than I do. Of course, you
regularly spout off with great authority about things you know nothing
about, so I don't know why I'm surprised.
Post by James A. Donald
Post by Bob T.
And my friends in a six-person group marriage - they aren't
really polyamorous?  And my other friend who has had two
boyfriends for years - she isn't really polyamorous?
"Open relationships" in practice means that some men are
women's hand bags, the handbags of women that are other men's
fuck toys.  Always, in open relationships, one man is the
winner, and the other men the losers who do the housework -
about as open as a sultan's harem with eunuchs in it.
Six people. One house. Not an "open relationship". Wrong again,
James - to nobody's suprise.
Post by James A. Donald
Post by Bob T.
Post by James A. Donald
The Tea Party homosexuals propose as solution to the gay
marriage problem <http://blog.jim.com/culture/a-solution-to-the-gay-marriage-and-the-co...>
getting the state out of the marriage business, and instead
let people draw up whatever nuptial contracts they please -
but of course the supreme court would doubtless rule such a
simple solution unconstitutional.
Hmm... Tea Party homosexuals... sounds like black members of the KKK
to me.
The tea party has about the same proportion of non whites as
the general population.   You can tell by how narrowly framed
the msm photos are.  Remember that incident when a black tea
partier was carrying a gun, and the msm photoshopped him into
a white klansman?
Here is a news conference between the (whiter people) press,
http://youtu.be/GizNwzKo3n8
Some hilarious lines "If there is no spit, you must acquit"
One of the tea partiers has a great pimp hat. I have a hat
like that.  It really does pull the chicks, even though I am
white.  Doubtless it works better if one is black.
The msm was totally shot down in flames, I was laughing all
the time.
"At least Monica Lewinsky kept her skirt.  Where is the
spittle"
On average, blacks tend to have lower IQ and shorter time
preference than whites, but no one can doubt they do way
better than whites at style and cool.
On average, people with the surname "Donald" tend to have lower IQ's
than ducks.
Post by James A. Donald
 Their sentences tend
to be simpler, but they can extemporize better.  And in this
wondeful interview ambush, the whiter people of the press
were just slaughtered by these classic black advantages which
these black conservatives demonstrated so compellingly. The
press, instead of ambushing, was ambushed.
Holy shit, you are one stupid bigot. Is it because your dad was
banging the black maid? See - I can make up bullshit about other
peoples' lives, too!
Post by James A. Donald
The whiter people press sentences were longer and more
complex, but failed to actually say anything.  Compare with
the Tea Partier "If there is no spit, you must acquit."  I
guess I cannot get too snooty about black diction.
Post by Bob T.
Post by James A. Donald
Perhaps we could instead sneak covenant marriage in under
the cover of legalizing polyamory and bdsm.  
Polyamory and BDSM are already legal,
Nuptial contracts that give the women less rights than the
state approves are not. A seventeen year old girl can
contract for gigantic college debts that cannot be expunged
by bankruptcy, in return for some academic training that will
not necessarily give her a career, but she cannot agree to a
nuptial contract where she commits herself to be always
sexually available for one man, and never for another.
And that bugs you because you think that women shouldn't be educated
beyond what they need for the kitchen, doesn't it? And here I'm not
just making shit up - you really do think that way! Damn, what a
stupid bigotted fuck you are.

- Bob T
James A. Donald
2010-08-11 02:45:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob T.
Post by James A. Donald
Nuptial contracts that give the women less rights than
the state approves are not [legal]. A seventeen year old
girl can contract for gigantic college debts that cannot
be expunged by bankruptcy, in return for some academic
training that will not necessarily give her a career, but
she cannot agree to a nuptial contract where she commits
herself to be always sexually available for one man, and
never for another.
Bob T.
Post by Bob T.
And that bugs you because you think that women shouldn't be
educated beyond what they need for the kitchen, doesn't it?
What bugs me is the number of baristas with gigantic
unexpungeable college debts. We either need to make college
debts subject to bankruptcy, or reintroduce indentured
servitude.
Quadibloc
2010-08-11 03:05:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by James A. Donald
What bugs me is the number of baristas with gigantic
unexpungeable college debts.  We either need to make college
debts subject to bankruptcy, or reintroduce indentured
servitude.
They used to be. I believe it was Ronald Reagan who changed that.

John Savard
James A. Donald
2010-08-12 20:38:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by James A. Donald
What bugs me is the number of baristas with gigantic
unexpungeable college debts.  We either need to make college
debts subject to bankruptcy, or reintroduce indentured
servitude.
Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
They used to be. I believe it was Ronald Reagan who changed that.
Ronald Reagan, however, put a limit on how much you can borrow that is
unexpungeable by bankruptcy. Bush removed the limit in 2005. As a
result, some baristas have entirely useless and extravagantly
expensive training to barristers.
Olrik
2010-08-11 04:53:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by James A. Donald
Post by Bob T.
Post by James A. Donald
Nuptial contracts that give the women less rights than
the state approves are not [legal]. A seventeen year old
girl can contract for gigantic college debts that cannot
be expunged by bankruptcy, in return for some academic
training that will not necessarily give her a career, but
she cannot agree to a nuptial contract where she commits
herself to be always sexually available for one man, and
never for another.
Bob T.
Post by Bob T.
And that bugs you because you think that women shouldn't be
educated beyond what they need for the kitchen, doesn't it?
What bugs me is the number of baristas with gigantic
unexpungeable college debts. We either need to make college
debts subject to bankruptcy, or reintroduce indentured
servitude.
When you'll get sick, how will you treat all the female doctors, nurses,
cooks or secretaries you'll have to deal with ?
Quadibloc
2010-08-11 03:04:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob T.
Post by raven1
On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 04:18:04 -0700 (PDT), Sound of Trumpet
Post by Sound of Trumpet
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2567199/posts
Polygamy: The New Growth Stock
TownHall ^ | August 9, 2010 | ALLEN HUNT
Posted on 09 August 2010 14:40:36 by Mrs. Don-o
I am bullish on polygamy. It has a bright future. Now that The Very
Reverend Vaughn Walker, High Priest of the Church of Political
Correctness, has cleared the way for the creation of the oxymoronic
idea of “homosexual marriage,” polygamy's life just got a whole lot
easier.
I wish you were right:  But polygamy is, for our speices, polygyny,
and polygyny implies patriarchy, which is horribly politically
incorrect, whereas homosexuality is politically correct.
Unless, of course, you live in the 21st Century, in which case it's
probably just polyamory, which is not patriarchical at all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyamory
On the other hand, polyamory is Wrong!

http://www.zazzle.ca/polyamory_is_wrong_tshirt-235838933475364492

John Savard
Bob T.
2010-08-11 03:45:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Bob T.
Post by raven1
On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 04:18:04 -0700 (PDT), Sound of Trumpet
Post by Sound of Trumpet
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2567199/posts
Polygamy: The New Growth Stock
TownHall ^ | August 9, 2010 | ALLEN HUNT
Posted on 09 August 2010 14:40:36 by Mrs. Don-o
I am bullish on polygamy. It has a bright future. Now that The Very
Reverend Vaughn Walker, High Priest of the Church of Political
Correctness, has cleared the way for the creation of the oxymoronic
idea of “homosexual marriage,” polygamy's life just got a whole lot
easier.
I wish you were right:  But polygamy is, for our speices, polygyny,
and polygyny implies patriarchy, which is horribly politically
incorrect, whereas homosexuality is politically correct.
Unless, of course, you live in the 21st Century, in which case it's
probably just polyamory, which is not patriarchical at all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyamory
On the other hand, polyamory is Wrong!
http://www.zazzle.ca/polyamory_is_wrong_tshirt-235838933475364492
Heh... funny.

- Bob T
Post by Quadibloc
John Savard- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
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